Interview with President of the European Convention Valery Giscard d'Estaing.

GISCARD D'ESTAING: I've always had very good relations with Britain, my grandfather was educated at Oxford, my wife speaks much better English than I do and ... the UK, Cambridge we go there every year, so the idea of offending the British is purely nonsense. And I wonder why there is such a campaign ...

Q: The Sun newspaper, which you may have heard of - widely read, some believe it is quite influential - says not only is your constitution, your text, the biggest betrayal in our history, but you, Giscard, are an arrogant, condescending snob. Have you a message for the editor of The Sun?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: (LAUGHS) No, because I'm not a subscriber of The Sun. I don't intend to become one. No I think it is very curious because we have a debate here, how to organise Europe. A difficult debate, no simple answers and it's a long lasting debate, started by Sir Winston Churchill long ago.

Q: Will the text be altered as a result of your conversations this week with Tony Blair?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: It will be improved. I hope so. Improved. Yes, we had a very frank, useful conversation with him. ... I did, three times, at the beginning of the convention, so I did not ignore at all the British point of view and even the British sensitivity. So insisting that some word were hard for the British on the symbolic or - federal - for instance, we will probably replace it by another word, which is communitaire. And there was some items on which gave quite a sensitivity in Britain and Tony Blair mentioned them to me. One is a question of taxation, harmonisation of taxation, and will we not propose any harmonisation of taxation.

Q: Economic policy?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: Well economic policy, first as you know, Britain is not in the eurozone and that is a problem for the eurozone because the countries have the same currency, the same rate of interest, the same central bank, so when one country is doing something harmful to the others we must have means to work with such a situation.

Q:So even though Britain is not in the eurozone you must have some levers over British economic policy so they can't harm the eurozone?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: No, the point is that certainly we agree that we need to have a better coordinated economic policy. But for instance, your debate, about the entry or not into the euro, you are debating yourself, if the proper situation is adjusted or not, vis a vis your participation, so we are not doing much more than that, and it's not an authoritarian way to do it.

Q: Britain also, apparently, does not want any suggestion of a united states of Europe. They want, the British government, the name to remain the same, the European Union. Have you ...

GISCARD D'ESTAING: Yes, it will remain the same. And there was -

Q: Even though you wanted it to be called United Europe?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: Well because it's more poetic ... Europe means something because it's a continent, so if the name was United Europe, when we speak of Europe in the future in China or in India, they will not speak about the union, they will speak about Europe. But I don't mind.

Q:You've said lots of things are negotiable or can be vetoed but what does the constitution stand or fall on?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: Probably, by my view, on two points. One point is to have a stable presidency of the system. Not the presidency of the, of Europe, not to frighten the British citizens and all The Sun readers, no, but a presidency of the council. At the moment you have a rotating presidency which means no one in Europe looks beyond the next six months. So to organise the future you need to have a longer view. Q:So one day we could have a permanent president?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: Yes.

Q:Say President Blair?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: Well we, we can have a British president of the ... in the future. Another point, very important, is to have a foreign secretary not to impose a common foreign policy but to create the conditions of there being common position and postures. Because we are neighbours, we share the same habits and values, we go all the time -

Q:Many people think that is a joke, after what happened over Iraq.

GISCARD D'ESTAING: No, an indication for the good of the argument. The argument indicates that we need to do something. Of course it's a joke because at the moment there is no common foreign policy at the moment. But on the other hand there is a desire expressed by people, all over Europe among people, that we should be, we should have a stronger Europe. Better organised. Not to compete, not to antagonise ... but just to have confidence in what we are and what, where we stand in the world of today.

Q:One British minister who is on the convention described all this as a tidying up exercise. It sounds, speaking to you, a lot more than that.

GISCARD D'ESTAING: Well there is a part in it. There is a part. Because we want to simplify the system. The system was cumbersome, impossible to understand - even for me!

Q:Is the British prime - former British prime minister - John Major, right or wrong when he says this is no more a tidying up exercise than a mouse is an elephant?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: Well I don't know what personal experience he has, to have in the same room a mouse and an elephant, so you must ask him. I never met both together, I met an elephant, I met a mouse, but not together. No it's well let me be simple and, if I may say so, honest. All people criticise Europe to be too complicated. All the people in Britain certainly. We are trying to simplify it. Our text will be very readable, we're not saying we'll get a prize for literature, but we will do our best that every citizen, student or just the people, who wants to understand can read our text.

Q:So the ordinary man in the street will be able to understand Europe?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: I think so. And I hope so.

Q: And you favour him having a voice in whether we accept it in a referendum?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: That is another issue. It's a British issue. For France, when it is a constitution, we have normally a referendum when we change or improve the constitution. In Britain the process is different because it is a treaty and a treaty can be opposed by the House of Commons. So we are not demanding that there will be a referendum, but we will be very pleased.

Q:This constitution, is there anything in it that will give the parliament at Westminster any more powers? Because everyone is saying that gradually the parliament at Westminster is being weakened, salamied - the powers salamied away.

GISCARD D'ESTAING: Yes. They fear this , but not only in Britain, they fear this in France, in other European countries. But I am very wary for that because I think we need what I call, what we call it, democratic legitimacy and the democratic legitimacy is enshrined in our national parliament. I am in favour of a very clear definition of the whole of the European institutions, on one side, and the national institutions on the other side. And I think in the past that it was due to the fact that Europe was on the making. There was a shift, as you mention, but now no, Europe is being organised, so we need to have clarification and stability.

Q:This constitution, any national government can veto it. They can pick holes in it. Could they, actually, over the next few weeks pick it to pieces - leave nothing?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: We are trying by contact, by seeing people, to eliminate a certain number of objections to make the document more acceptable by most of the European countries. But at the end, they keep the final word. If a country like Britain or another one doesn't want to accept it, they have the right to modify it or to go through with it.

Q: What happens to a country that refuses, either in a referendum or a parliamentary vote? GISCARD D'ESTAING: There will be no treaty. Q: Did you not threaten that any state refusing to sign up would be expelled from the EU?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: No, this is different. You know, we don't want to give to the world over the impression that Europe is a jail and you are forced to be into it. This is sometimes expressed "We cannot get out of Europe, we're trapped into Europe." So ... this morning. We have an article, we will allow ... any member state to leave, if it wants.

Q: What, why does Britain have such a tortured relationship with Europe? Ever since the days of Charles de Gaulle, we've been judged suspiciously on whether we were good Europeans or not. Why do you think that we have this problem with Europe?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: Because you never made up your mind. That's the point. The problem is with you.

Q: Can we stay out of the euro and still be a wholehearted member of Europe?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: No, it's very interesting, I understand it, if I were British probably there would be, I would have the same ... position. Britain never consider, Europe as the full option. They wanted to be in Europe but to have other options, one of the special partnership with the US, and the Commonwealth and others.

Q: So have we got to now make up our mind in your view?

GISCARD D'ESTAING: In the next years - not now, by now - but I would say if you want to be as a wish a leading country in Europe, because they have much to give to Europe, if you want to be a leading country I think you should make up your mind in the next ten years.

Q: So what's your vision of the great European project? How do you see it developing over the next 25 years, will it be the super state

GISCARD D'ESTAING: I wish it will be a strong community of people, peaceful, tolerant - which is not the case at the moment - open to the rest of the world, the rest of the world will change, China will change, India will change with some warm feeling between each other because we are similar in spite of historical differences. But not a super state, you know. A strong, organisation of nation states.

"BBC Breakfast with Frost"